ASYLUM: a long, last look at woodlands

government team
tonights workshop is going to focus on housing and density and its a very important element - its when we are creating a community were trying to create a sense of place where people live but we are also looking to find a very key component thats driving some of the revenue and it is the revenues that are driven from the project that will dictate how many of the amenities we can provide and theres a lot that we want to do there - alright - i would like to return tonight to the issue of returns - one of the planning principles i think it was number 6 said that woodlands would be a very balanced comprehensive community - balancing land uses and amenities and the economic feasibility and that has always been our message all the way through - weve always been straining to strike those balances - weve talked about choices - there are choices in almost every decision which we have to look at - each choice affects something in another way - we have to keep moving and shifting around and as you can appreciate then anybody who has tried to trade house or buy and sell cars recently - you dont tell the person you are negotiating with what your bottom line is and what youre willing to accept before you start your negotiations - we are no different - were not going to publicly divulge any projected returns for this very valuable asset which belongs to the taxpayers that might impair our negotiations as we move down the road - and we will be there shortly - into agreements with developers - but i want to say that were not doing this in a vacuum - we are moving towards the principle of planning for a balanced community with those amenities and to achieve those viabilities and the staff at the city hall and the commissions are very much aware of that -01-19-09 - and will be reviewing all of these things and they will be looking at the economics behind them - they go through this on a daily basis - they know what they can extract for a development permit - whats reasonable and what isnt - what i can say though and ive heard this comment from outside as well as from other members of the team - is that the basket of amenities which we have been proposing - as we have been working through our workshops - are quite considerable and quite extensive when you compare them to other comparable community developments and theyre being provided at no cost to the city so these are not amenities that are being provided through tax dollars these are amenities that are being driven out of the site - i just want to give you some examples of some of the things that are there - 01-20-00 - the greenway links and the trails through the ravine that we talked about and the links we have been asked to provide across the columbia street frontag - the cost of those are in the order of 700 to 800000 dollars and the dedication of 14 acres of green park and 6 acres of that columbia front lawn plus all of the internal parks thats taking - thats not really developable land but some of the front lands we could have developed but we chose not to - open spaces and parks internally - just the cost not the land cost but the costs to provide the amenities in there - preserving the trees -

arborist, urban planner, real estate manager- members of the government team- 2002

we had a target budget in there of 1 million dollars - making the nurses lodge available to the wider community and this is a heritage building - 01-20-52 - we havent been able to find a really good adaptive reuse in market terms for it - we have proposed that it become a community amenity - weve heard that possibly a museum - possibly a day care - possibly some special needs schooling - we dont know - we would like to hear some ideas as to how it could be utilized - it is certainly an asset for the community - youve asked us to preserve - we will but there has to be a good use for it - maintaining the recreation building in the center of the site - the cost of that and the nurses lodge are around 3 million dollars and the land underneath which could have been used for other purposes - the pedestrian overpass over mcbride which is in the order of 15 to 2 million dollars - the incremental cost of the heritage adaptive reuse 15 to 2 million dollars for the works that have been proposed and internal roads and servicing that become municipal streets at the end of the day - the bill there is around 4 to 5 million - so as you can see theres quite a big package of amenities here which will benefit the development - there is no question about - some of which benefits the city and are used by citizens at large such as the greenways and overpasses - and in addition to that at the end of the day there is going to be a significant increase in the tax base - one estimate we had is 180 million dollars added to the tax base so substantial tax revenues will come out of it

government team
so we are then talking about planning thats very balanced and viable and that will survive and thrive in the long term - if it doesnt work then its not going to be a good community - so were trying to create one which wont struggle and wont fail - and in doing that there is this mix of land uses and amenities - that is what we will be talking about tonight - what are the demographic forces - housing market trends and demands underlying it all - we will hear from blake about that one - richard will lead us through how do you take those housing types and how do you place them on the site - where are the best spots for high rises or parks considering views and trees the topography and that sort of thing - so we will go through a little exercise on that - and thats all got to be set against the preservation of the trees and how do we deal with those heritage buildings - what new uses can we adapt those to - they cant be adapted to just any use they have to be very particular - 01-23-29 - i just want to go back to the very early vision we had for woodlands - we talked about at the first open house and lasts - its one that - a vision that is founded upon the innovative and ultimate care and support for our aging population - the vision is a housing community that promotes wellness and diversity and highlights some of the emerging concepts in the delivery of that continuing community care - which nick has done a fair amount of research in and im going to ask him to give you some of the background on what some of those changing concepts are in community care - nick

people
there is a couple things you have left out one of which is the nurses residence - what did you say is the cost of renovating that

government team
01-24-25 - the estimate was somewhere in the order of 700,000 dollars

people
and the overpass to queens park at mcbride - i gather it goes to queens park - where abouts is it going to go over

government team
the proposal is that it would be - uh - about one half block south of the edge of the cemetery

people
are there going to be more than one developer and how are they going to be chosen and if they have been chosen how have they been chosen

government team
there are a lot of questions there - will there be more than one - we dont know - how they have been chosen we dont know - it will be a public open process to find the developer - we will be calling for proposals from one or more developers - um - we havent made a determination when and whether in fact we are going to stay involved through the process in a joint venture - we probably will to some extent because we have some big issues on the site which we have to stay involved with and deal with - some of our clients are still in there - the cemetery and that sort of thing - so we may stay involved - so there may be a joint venture - that has not been determined

people
ive just done some quick figures - i estimate that the total to get all these amenities to be about 9 million dollars with a tax base of 108 million for the city

government team
180 million is my estimate of the assessed value of all of the housing on the site after it is built out - so at the end of the day when you get your - the total of the tax notice on that - so thats not the total of the taxes - i cant even contemplate what that will be

people
once the green space and the walkways are established would that become the responsibility of the city to maintain those

government team
were having some discussion - that is normally what would be the case but were talking with them about the possibility of having a special area assessment just for woodlands that would provide some money just to maintain that - so that is a subject that is in discussion

government team
01-27-30 - about seniors care - simon fraser health unit have been doing a lot of work spearheaded by keith anderson who was the former vice president and chief operating officer - keith recognized that there was a new way of delivering care - that the old way of putting people in a care home in an institutional setting was rather dehumanizing and it was very expensive - in fact there are ways now to keep frail elderly people in their homes - but you give them adequate support services - so that has already been recognized as a new wave of providing care - its a more integrated - a more home based system - so simon fraser health region got together with bcbc and said look we have a site here once we resume the planning process and it was felt that this was a great opportunity to maybe come up with some sort of - try out some of these new ideas to maybe accommodate - oh - the new care model here - that was one of the early sessions back in the early 2000s - that was very much a - a very strong component of the whole thing was we would have this community of care - 01-28-52 - and you know in a way what it does is it recognizes that you have got to create a community - people have to be living within this community - its vibrant - its diverse and you have all of the facilities that you need so as a result of this thrust - the first movement we took of course was - to - with simon fraser health authority - was to earmark a four and one half acre site which will be transferred to them and will contain a multi level care facility of 150 beds - there will be some dementia cottages - these will be for elderly people with dementia - there will probably be accommodations for some 30 people and in addition to that there will be the hope center and the hope is an interesting concept - its quite an innovative concept - hope stands for healthy ptions pertaining to elders and what it is is a daycare and a support center so that seniors who are still living in their homes can be brought in on the handydart - they can spend the day there - they can have their medical treatment and they can socialize and be taken home in the evening sort of thing - 01-29-50 - its another piece of infrastructure which enables the elderly to remain in their home - the other thing they are also thinking of putting into this four and one half acre site is a daycare for the employees for the queens park care center and also for the royal columbian hospital - another interesting concept which is emerging is the whole idea of assisted living - slightly different - initially - assisted living was thought about as another form of housing for the elderly where you - or perhaps the public provided or was provided by a nonprofit with possible subsidies of the rent and this would provide on site nursing care - people would still live in their own homes but they would have these community spaces where they could go and socialize in - however the thought is that this mode is applicable for more than just the elderly and they are now - thinking of extending it to other client groups - 01-30-50 - i think probably people - you know - the chesher homes and people with mental disabilities - so there is definitely a recognition there that some form of assisted living could be accommodated on the site and that at the moment we are earmarking this particular site here if only because the studies done by simon fraser have indicated that there is a demand immediately demographically because of a certain number of frail elderly people in the area - there is a demand immediately for 100 assisted living units - we are anticipating that something like that will go on the site of course it may probably - it will probably require some government funding and also the the delivery may end up being a P 3 --- the other element of housing in care which is probably orientated to seniors is more the market based and this is congregate housing - we have already talked to some of the developers - we have had a meeting with anico who have developed quite a few of these congregets - oh - and for those of you who are unfamiliar with them - a congreget housing development is aimed at normally 55 and up - its like a normal market condominium apartment except that it incorporates a very large common area - in fact you could have your own apartment - again in which you would buy like buying a regular condominium - but you also have all these common areas so there would be lots of libraries and card playing rooms - television rooms and there will be a restaurant and you can actually buy packages of food so for example if you wanted to eat in the restaurant 20 times a month you can buy that package so it enables people to be by themselves if they wanted to or they can go and socialize - so we really think there is a strong market for that sort of thing and we are anticipating that somewhere on the site at the moment - it is impossible to say where - we dont have the final plan set up but something in the nature of a congregate housing development - one or more would be very good and they would be part of this concept of care because people could age in place - because you will have the congregate care which may be copes with people while theyre in their 60s and 70s and then when they get into their 80s and 90s maybe then they can move into the care facilities - its an aging in place - you dont have to leave the community

people
how much do you anticipate the cost of buying into one of these units for 55 and up might be

government team
i think they tend - i havent done a lot of research in this but my sense of this is that they tend to be - the real estate costs about the same as any other real estate - on top of that of course you have these other packages you can buy such as the meal program - i think in essence it is a way for a lot of seniors to have their community downstairs in the building - if theyre feeling lonely they can go into the elevator and downstairs to the library and get something to eat - 01-34-40 - the idea is if somebody is very frail and if they need acute - the sort of care that multi level care gives them - this is where they would go - this is really aimed at the older people that are still reasonably mobile but they need some support so what you do is you allow them to stay in their own home - you supply that home with support - you give them all the other support facilities in the community and take them there when they need them - you would be in your unit and if you needed a medical checkup you would once a week go down to the common room in the building either a nurse or a nurse practitioner or a doctor depending on the need - would come in and provide the treatment

government team
i think the intention on the site dick - is to create a continuum of care possibly so that people have all kinds of levels of care from the very non invasive or intrusive - 01-35-50 - it is there - to very intensive levels of care if they needed - so people could actually stay on site and move from facility to facility

people
could you answer my question about the cost - youre talking about and its a little bit confusing for me - everything from chronic care to much less - to where you could come and go as you please with a restaurant facility - buying into that kind of - if youre talking about market price and buying into that youre talking about a very high end service

people
congregate care - that is a very high end market - its very expensive and is a concern in most communities because very few seniors can actually afford it - its fabulous but it takes a very wealthy senior

government team
01-38-30 - its not for everyone - i think thats when the assisted living comes in - the assisted living is aimed at the frail elderly of limited means who require some form of assistance - these are the people who have to live on an old age social security and just an old age pension - if you are a senior with some other pension income - something like the congregate care might well be a viable alternative and you know the prices will be to a great extent dictated by the real estate prices because obviously the congregate care developer has to be in the ballpark

people
but the concern is that some of the seniors who most need the extra support will not be able to afford it

people
new westminster has a very polarized demographic where there are a have not population of transients and the reasonably well off and not much in the middle - 01-40-05 - we are a very unique situation here that you have to look at and thats one reason why questions are coming up because our population is very diverse - its either left or right - not too much in the middle

government team
one of the things i have to say is - that is the sort of information we passed through to fraser health and im sure that they are aware of some of those demographics- what were trying to do here - nick has sort ofoutlined four or five different ways that seniors health care could be - seniors housing with health care components - how a variety of ways could be accommodated on this site - were not going to say it is all going to be one or that it is all going to be another - were saying that we are providing that opportunity - if an entrepreneur steps in and has looked at the market place and there is sufficient demand for this kind of housing - 01-41-13 - then it will be provided - we are providing an opportunity and we are trying to make sure that some of the health care stuff - assistance and the public nursing - is also accommodated

people
i do work in anicos two buildings - canada way lodge over in burnaby - and you can get a studio there for $1,600 so this lady who was speaking about people who can afford that - that really limits the number of people who can afford that type of accommodation - so surely in this kind of planning you must recognize that in new westminster there is a segment of our population that cannot afford the type of accommodation that is provided by anico at canada way lodge and other places they manage

government team
but i think we recognize that - i think the sort of people you are talking about - 01-44-35 - would probably be the ones who would be candidates for assisted living and they would be the frail elderly of limited means who cant afford the $1,600

people
let me backtrack for a second here - i would like to point out something - the average income in the city of new westminster is not $54,000 which statistics canada says that is thecincome of the average person in the province of british Columbia - in new westminster the average income is about $25,000 so youre looking now at $1,600 a month just for rent - he aint going to make it on $25,000 so im just saying that they really have to - and this is an issue that has to be brought up in front of the developers and in front of simon fraser

government team
01-45-30 - i dont think that simon fraser is the one who is suggesting the congregate - simon fraser would be involved in assisted living because that involves care as part of the building and they would provide the care package - probably a developer would provide the real estate and of course there may be an element of subsidy in rent because as you say a lot of elderly people here have a very low income - and those are the ones who would be on assisted living - all i can say is that we have had discussions with anica and they have looked at the site and they have said yes we would definitely be interested in developing on that site - now in a preliminary way they have already spied a market - now it may very well be people from new westminster and it may be people from burnaby and other municipalities who would come to new westminster because of the quality of the site - it is a beautiful sight gorgeous views and has a lot of stuff going for it and that may well be what happens in the end

people
but there is a point here - lets get it straight - what youre saying is that this entire development here is market market market - whatever the traffic will bear - government let me understand clearly the government is not going to get in and provide any chronic care - subsidized housing or anything of that nature - am i right

government team
no youre wrong

people
im glad to hear that

government team
the answer is no - there is one side of the site here that is the simon fraser health authority and they are proposing multilevel care and some sort of hope center which is going to assist in housing the elderly - there is a very keen interest from them on doing an assisted living project - we have also talked to bc housing who have said that we would like to have a site on this site - so its not all market

people
but the four and a half acres is what youre talking about

government team
im not going to get into the numbers game - there is provision for that and there is provision for market housing - if bc housing figures that they can support two three or four sites in here they will do that - we dont control their decisions nor do we control how they market - there will be some market housing here and there will be some non market

people
can i ask a question which has been stalking me from day one - from the first workshop - it sounds like its been predecided that - that purple area has already been pre set aside for the four and a half acres

government team
yes because simon fraser health region then ----

people
well then i have an argument on the side of the developer - the developer did not have the same opportunity - to say why - you know - you know what im saying

government team
the primary reason why that site was chosen was that the previous government - 01-49-05 - put up a sum of money and said that in a number of health regions they would provide funding to provide 2000 long term care beds - simon fraser was given an allocation out of that total - simon fraser looked at the whole region and said that if we have to develop a new site for multilevel care we would like it to be in woodlands so thats why - then they came to us and - so we looked at the site and we had to do something - it was in advance of the preliminary planning process but because of the funding guidelines - funding deadlines of the previous government - they said we have to get this thing sorted out by march 2001

parent of former woodlands resident and advocative for persons with disabilities- 2002

people
before the election

government team
before the election

people
laughter

government team
01-49-53 - there was a deadline there so the decision had to be taken otherwise you would lose the money so that is the reason why we went ahead of the original planning process and picked that site because of its proximity to queens park hospital - this was deemed to be the best location

people
so thats a done deal

government team
thats a done deal

government team
i just want to quickly review the context for which we are making some of these suggestions and proposals - you remember planning history that we talked about at the first workshop - in 1995 to 1997 there were a number of public workshops which were held that were just like this - we were not involved - but a major theme which came out of those workshops was that on the woodlands site there should be provision for housing both market and non market and those housing types include lowrise - high rise and seniors and also included was heritage preservation including restoration and adaptive reuse and obviously one of those adaptive reuses is housing and we are looking at that - in 1998 new westminsters official community plan called for the area of woodlands to be established as a comprehensive development with a diversity of housing types - it called for preservation and adaptive reuse of heritage buildings - in 2000 to 2001 the feasibility planning study which we are involved in with bcbc and the simon fraser health region said that we should proceed with rezoning the woodlands property for a health based community of care integrated into an overall residential community and nick has outlined some of those health care related facilities which we are going to provide on the site - i just want to take a minute to reiterate our vision for the site - our vision for the site is to create a vibrant - diverse - sustainable and livable community for all ages at a human scale - integrated into new westminsters urban fabric - the other part of this vision is to do a housing community promoting wellness and diversity highlighting emerging concepts in continuing care - we have identified a number of planning principles and we have talked about the need to create a balanced community - we wanted a place for all cycles of life - for families for singles and for seniors - we want uses to include a range of public and private health-care facilities - market and assisted housing types - we want a variety of housing types - differed scales creating a community of vitality and interest - 01-53-40 - we want to maximize as i have said before - retention of the heritage structures on the site - there is a development economics parameter here - we want to redevelop woodlands as a comprehensive planned community - balancing land use - balancing the amenity package that ian has talked about and it has to be economically feasible - no one will do it if it isnt - ok - ah - there are some challenges quite frankly to our site - we have a lot of topography on the site that we have to deal with - we have to adapt the housing to the topography - we need to respect views - overshadowing and all of those kinds of issues - ah - in our previous workshops we have tried to outline a framework for the development of the woodland site - its all about connecting the site to the community - now its a bit isolated - beyond the a lawn - behind big hedge - to mcbride - 01-54-45 - so we have talked about - how we can create linkages - we have two major park systems surrounding the site - very unusual - we have glenbrook ravine park - we have got queens park - we want to use our site to develop a pedestrian and a bike connection between those parks and that includes the development of an overpass - ah - to queens park - we have also planned for connections that we are creating or we are preserving on our site ourselves - we have said that that is sacrosanct - the big lawn along columbia - there is no development going on there other than redevelopment of some heritage structures - we talked about creating a new center commons area relating to a rehab recreation center and we have talked about the memorial garden - thats the cemetery - we are going to look at making that into a memorial garden - so what we talked about is creating a linkage in a north south direction that would link those three major systems - 01-55-45 - those three open spaces - so that starts to set up a framework for development in each of those green way connections - both the east west one and the north south one will have different character - weve talked about the east west one being a natural character tieing queens park to the glenbrook ravine park - so it will feel like youre in a park setting all the way through - the ones that are going north south need to be a little more structured because the site is falling as much as 90 feet from this end of the site to that end so were going to have to terrace down with a series of steps and planters and ramps to make those connections so that will have a slightly different character than the east west framework - ah - weve talked about creating special precincts on the site - this open space commons area related to the recreation center starts to set up a major focal point to the site as a whole - we have also talked about creating a village heart here and that starts to set up a commercial mixed use residential zone that is the entry to the site and provides neighbourhood commercial uses such as shopping - ah - perhaps a small grocery store - drugstore - restaurant - those types of uses to service this community - weve developed a road pattern - ah - to the project so that we are taking a lot of the existing roads that are on the site and we are trying to reuse them as much as possible - we dont want to impact too much on the open space or too many of the trees - weve talked about preserving as many trees as possible - we are creating a new road access because we frankly need to create better access to the site - its quite restrictive - so once you take this framework into account the road system - the east west greenways - the north south greenways - 01-57-30 - preservation of the open spaces - the development of commons area and rec center and village heart center and add to that the preservation of this front line of heritage buildings - you see that only certain portions of the site are available for what we call market housing - the other portions as previously discussed tonight have been dedicated to simon fraser health region so these gold parcels here are the ones we are looking at for some marketing concepts - then we are going to start to look at what are the appropriate densities on these parcels - what are the adjacencies - where can we do high rise - thats a more sensitive building type - where are we looking at low and mid rise - and im going to talk to that in a minute but i would like now to hand this over to blake herdema to talk - 01-58-47- blake is our market consultant and blake you are going to talk about the demand for various housing types on site - the demographics the trends the tenures that can and will be supported in new westminster and the overall development feasibility of these types and uses

government team
thanks - our specialty is planning and economics and market analysis - we were asked to come in and assist the development team and to work with the community to figure out what kind of market segments are available both for a purely market situation and a non market situation - so we started with a general overview of the housing market - we said what are the population - the demographic - the economic characteristics that are going to fuel the demand for housing over the next 10 15 or 20 years - so looking at it fairly generally - to give us the pool of housing and then we can break it into attached detached types of housing - 01-59-47 - whether it will be high density or low density and then figure out tenure types - whether it will be ownerships - rental - assisted - whether it will be seniors - and started to go through some of that and provide that information into the consulting team that allows them to start to put shapes to these to start to meld those as richard and ian indicated - to bring them into the balance of some fairly challenging - as you know its a fairly small site - its a large site and a small site - it has some wonderful characteristics which want to be preserved and within that is integrating the housing within this - um - we started with obviously looking at some of the housing demand and things we have seen over the 1980s to the 1990s period - there was about 400 housing units added to the city in that time each year - so what we saw was - is a fairly strong demand and that demand - 02-00-59 - transcends practically all of the age and the market segments right from seniors through to - ah - we call them the go gos - the 55 to 65 - ah - into couples and families - what we do know and we have heard it a couple of times is that there is a polarization within the population of new westminster and i think very respectfully that there are very - there are some larger families but at the same time there are lots of singles - there are some fairly affluent people while on the other side of the spectrum there is some fairly modest income families and modest income singles and couples - all of that blended together has helped us to look at in those next 10 and 15 years that type of housing that is going to be most appropriately needed for those segments - so weve gone through a series of housing principles - what we wanted to do is ensure that we had - 02-01-58 - the greatest range of choice - the greatest range of affordability and the greatest range of opportunities for - as again has been indicated - the bcbc role or responsibility is to partner this with a series of developers so what we want to do is to put some certainty into this - some market certainty that allows those development partners to come forth and create what we hope is going to be a wide range of housing choices and affordability range - weve looked at rental and owned - we have looked at private market housing as well - we have look at seniors and assisted - again some of the assisted because of its role and its relationship with the government - we have areas defined - obviously the purple areas as indicated on the land use map - we want to recognize unique characteristics of new westminster - in all of these the market analysis is based on the unique character of the community -
02-02-55 - and the character of the community historically - currently and what we think it might have be in the future - we know the population now is about 55,000 - we know that in the next 15 years that probably is going to increase by about 33% or about 20,000 - thats going to create a demand for housing - youve seen a variety of different unit types - new westminster because of its containment i guess and its relatively build up nature - most of that or a lot of that new housing has got to be in higher density forms type housing - so the future is really in some of those higher density formats - the nice thing about that - it fits in with the regional plan which is a compact and more of a higher density development - so it really mirrors some of what we have really seen in this city already and what we see in some of the inner parts of the region - 02-04-13 - taking those principles and moving forth - the population bulge year - giving us some indication - we know that - oh - were probably in the next 20 years - we are not going to see as many people in the sort of 34 to 45 age category - we will see the above 55 increase at a fairly steep rate but it is a fairly narrow segment - again what we do know is that there is going to be 20s to 35s age category that are going to fuel a significant part of that demand - that again will be accommodated by - whether it be owned or rental accommodation - taking all of that information - it starts to give us what we think are some of the opportunities and when we looked at this particular site and we looked at a range of units from probably about 800 to 1600 - weve played a series of scenarios and options - at the time we tried to provide a mix which could then be put into the financial model to find out how much of these amenities we can really afford - we have of looked at - in this particular case come up with a recommended mix of housing - 02-05-27 - that ranges from lower density forms again - town houses through the stacked and gardened type of accommodation into a low rise - the three and four story walk up type building - through to high rise buildings - this as you have probably gathered - in blocks of 100 to 120 - probably the difference between three high rise towers and four high rise towers - about 250 to 300 low rise apartments and plus or minus 500 in the stacked and gardened -low density - again added in and around some of the higher density forms plus or minus somewhere around 140 to 150 units - again these are provided as purely and simply guidelines to this process and ultimately to the partnering process that individual sites will take part of ---- so with that i will take questions or turn it over

government team
this plan - this is just a suggestion of what might be proposed ----

government team
02-06-30 - its a set of guidelines which respect the market so that when bcbc goes into the marketplace and entertains partners - they come to it and say yeah that sounds reasonable - we would like to come into the community and invest and build

people
or they could say we dont like that at all - we dont want to do - this we would like to do something else ----

government team
i think the guidelines are intended to be relatively flexible -ha ha - within certain parameters - the city of course will want i guess an overall development guideline - a set of conditions for developments - but i think it is going to be fairly flexible so that - as you know - developers like some creativity and thats what we are hoping to encourage in this - we will give them a block of clay and let them shape it into what they think is ----

woodlands re-development, public workshop- 2002

people
the purple areas are set aside - lets say for the non market housing - for the simon fraser health region and so on - 02-07-45 - the yellow areas is for market housing so the whole area in the left hand corner is for non market housing - right

government team
thats correct - thats for assisted living - what we should also point out ----

people
how much is that secured - if a developer comes in and says i will take that if i can do market housing as well ----

government team
well i think that in the planning process there will be some assurance that on a site by site basis ----

government team
we are also preparing design guidelines which will be adopted by the city of new westminster - for this site and it will give a very strong indication of what will happen in each sub parcel of the site - 02-08-10 - some of the yellow could possibly be used for non market housing - there is a recognition that if the demand is there some of the yellow areas could be broken up

people
the main entrance to the site is off royal avenue - what other entrance have you got planned

government team
there will be a new road access right south of the memorial gardens

people
onto mcbride avenue

government team
onto mcbride - it will be a fully controlled intersection

people
my impression is that discussions have been made and we still have room for input here so - im just looking at some of the statistics - growth in population is 6 to 7000 people every five years between 2001 to 2016 - we are talking about putting in 2800 people - 02-12-40 - in 1300 units so it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that we will be providing the majority of the new spaces on one chunk of land - if this is about density in housing we also talked in the last session back in 94 95 - green space was a huge issue there and you didnt mention it once - im a little concerned about that - in your submission when we looked at the property the way it is - what we are preserving here is land you cant build on with the exception of a small piece in the center

government team
i just want to tell you one thing - for all this development which is proposed - the simon fraser health region and the market housing - we did a net area calculations showing that - ah - previously there were about 28 acres of open space on the site including some of these big areas and even when you do all of this development the only loss of open space was only about 3 acres - 02-14-05 - thats pretty good and the ravine is not touched - the reason for that is we are taking a lot of the existing site which is not open space- its actually big parking lots and were creatgin open space where those parking lots used to be - so even with all the development your dead loss of open space is not that great

people
its still 3 acres

government team
its 3 acres yeah - but you are also talking about 1300 units - there is a trade-off

people
i just want to go back - were talking about 1300 units for 2800 people - two people living in a unit - were talking about population growth again - i will reiterate - six to 7000 people every five years so your market requires that the value to sell these units is going to be suppressed because you are putting so much on the market at the same time

government team
02-15-00 - no i think the intention is to phase over - we havent got a phasing plan here - its a buildup ----

government team
two things - one thing - to go back to relating the units and the population - i dont think we anticipate that we will get 100% of new westminsters market share so the average unit size may be smaller - obviously we have to be cognizant of - while this site is fantastic in terms of its location - in terms of its view - in terms of its amenities - in terms of the community - its going to be - we think its going to be marketable - by no means though do we think it is going to be that hot

people
02-15-50 - i just have a concern about this ---- yes people need to have affordable places to buy into but you know we all have experiences of living in communities where you have this mix from the poor to the affluent - but im sorry - but it doesnt work all the time - you know you have issues with society which say - you know - joe blow he has a mercedes benz parked in his driveway and im having trouble putting food on my plate - this particular development is so closed and so compacted i would just hope that consideration is given to the fact that it cant be that extreme situation when we talk about marketing the property and certainly there has to be a value to it this is - truly is - the last green area or the last vestige in new westminster with which to do something unique - so if you try to incorporate everything i think youre going to miss the potential to maximize say the green space - by building stuff that isnt necessarily spread out - perhaps building a little more densely

people
cut out low income

people
did i say that

people
no but thats what it sounded like

people
thank you - make sure you stand corrected on that - the benefit here is that you can provide a percentage of affordable housing for people who can afford it - were going to have seniors on there that are going to be in that category and you just want to make an area that is protected so if density is an issue then you can do a little more density and create a little more green space then you have areas with visibility - walk safety - you can even cross the street and you dont have to go around houses to see - its just my opinion

new westminster resident and social activist- 2002

people
02-17-30 - with reference to this gentleman - in the royal city record tonight there is an announcement about a massive housing development in queensborough and also in new west planning there is plans for additional high rises - so anticipating increase of 6000 per year that increase is going to come in different parts of our city

government team
i think we fully recognize that to develop the site it will take something like eight to ten years given the size of it

government team
i just want to respond to some of the things that james was saying - we do see the site as being quite special in terms of what it gives back to the community - its not just about marketing housing it is about an amenity package we are creating with some of the revenue of this market housing - so right now woodlands - youre not really welcome on this side - it doesnt really link with the community and there is an attempt by the planning team here to try and make this bigger than the sum of its parts - that you can walk from one park to another park in an east west and a north south direction - we want to improve the pedestrian experience by pulling them into the site - we want to take down the fences and the barriers of this site and give it back not just for the people who are buying into this community but also for people to connect through and create those linkages - ah - we are talking about things like pedestrian overpass across mcbride - 02-19-29 - we are talking about community facilities like a greenhouse - we are talking about people places - about public art - about pathways that are contemplative and green - we are talking about rehabbing the rec center and being able to use that - so there is a whole amenity package which goes along - yes there is market housing but there is all kinds of little events - little nodes - little courtyards of open space that will be available for public use

people
the trick will be and as i have seen in some places is that when push comes to shove theyre not available for the publics use - cause the people who live there decide that they really dont want people and their dogs walking around their property

government team
i can tell you these major greenways will be forever dedicated for public use - they cannot be fenced off

people
no no no - its not liked they are actually fenced off - they become fenced off in the minds of people ----

woodlands re-development - public workshop- 2002

government team
that goes to how you design them - the specifics of the design - and thats where our design guidelines become really important in terms of setting up the hierarchy of what is public space what is semi public space and what is private space

people
could you just reiterate your comment of public and private and who determines what is private and what is a public space - am i correct in hearing you say that the city will determine that

government team
02-23-25 - the open space will be very clearly public space - the greenways through the site will be on parcels of land - they will be on easements which will be in favor of the city of new westminster

government team
in terms of specifics of design if you think of this as your north south greenway one of the things that were doing as a planning principle is to create housing enclaves or clustered housing around open space so as you the veer off from this very public greenway you would go into a more semi private courtyard and then you would go into the unit and there are patios that work off these courtyards so there is a hierarchy of space and its quite clear - should be clear from a design standpoint when you are moving from the public realm into the more semi private realm and then into someones unit - and thats just good design - good housing design

people
there are high rises - youre talking three or four

government team
yes we are looking at - i mean one of the points that i think james you were raising - you know if you get a little higher density you get a greater number of units in a smaller footprint hence you get more open space

people
i thought we were told at one point that two were going on the simon fraser site next to mcbride

government team
02-25-27 - if we are looking at this site here this is a mixed use site where we have the commercial area - we think it is a good idea to have one or two towers there above the commercial and some lower rise units above commercial - oh - and those could be for seniors - assisted living also comes in a high rise model of development as well and you can see a lot of that at 6th and 6th at the shopping center - where you get towers on the top of a shopping center - you get a lot of it in vancouver around oakridge shopping center - its quite clear that seniors like to be around the shopping center - easy access - so if we start to set up that scenario - that to us makes a bit of sense - there is another possibility that we could have it here closer to the pedestrian overpass to queens park - so we wanted to look at different locations - where is the view obstruction the least - wheres the overshadowing the least - and thats what were looking at now

people
02-26-35 - you did have a little statement in your brochure - a few meetings back about using the power plant as an entry to a high rise

government team
weve looked at the boilerhouse site in terms of a high rise - where it might occur exactly - again needs to be studied very carefully because of potential view blockage - potential overshadowing - we have heard some concerns from the residents of jameson court for example - so were not going to be putting towers side by side where they block views and overshadow units both in the fraserview development or in the development which we are developing

people
but if you use that entry as an entry to a tower - youre blocking jameson court

government team
02-27-20- i think that was an idea that was put out - what im saying here is that we havent actually finally located any tower location on that site

people
do you have any space dedicated for low income people on the site

government team
we have been looking at one of the sites - we are in fact looking at the one close to the cemetery - bc housing expressed an interest in this site - we havent pinned down any particular site for them - they havent come forward asking for one - they couldnt quite proceed with any site

people
who would we contact toput pressure on them to do that

government team
they have their own program- i cant force them to do their job

people
02-30-21 - it helps if members of the public ask them to participate

government team
their mandate is to supply affordable housing

people
in reality this is provincial land and bc housing is a provincial corporation and its charged with ----

government team
i just wanted to conclude with a brief discussion of these housing types - ah - we talked about the amenities package the health care housing which is a big part of this site - i just wanted to make one point about that - what were trying for from a design standpoint is totally deinstitutionalize - that is very residential in character - some of you know of buchanan lodge - it fits in with the community - that it replicates normal lifestyle packages - were not looking to build institutionalized facilities in any way - we actually want the whole development to hang together as a very great place to live - we talked about high rises - there are some pros and cons to them - one is you capitalize on view opportunities - the views are quite spectacular on this site - 360 degree views not only just to the fraser river but to the mountains - to queens park - to the glenbrook ravine park - and hopefully within our site itself the increased density allows retention of more open space - more residents can live at the heart of the community where the action is - the cons are actually shadows - view impingement and you have got to pay close attention to the pedestrian scale of these developments - but well designed they can work quite well and provided they do not overshadow and block views - we talked about mixed use and - the - ah - village heart and the advantage of that is accessible locally available commercial means for pedestrian traffic from the peoples units to the shopping center area rather than getting them into their cars - a village heart - a local meeting area which we want to develop - 02-32-40 - and you can share some of the infrastructure to service that - the concerns about mixed use are privacy - hours of operation - service areas need to be well designed when they are juxtaposed with housing - ah - safety concerns of shops and housing above them - there are lots of examples of this in vancouver - it works quite well - medium density around courtyards - these types of buildings helped to develop a coherent street edge - you get eyes on the street - you get units looking - observing the patterns that are going on on the street - thats a good thing cause it starts to make the neighbourhood feel safer - you get ground orientated units even though these units are four stories high - ah - they can have ground oriented units with their own patios - street addresses - they are pedestrian in scale and massing in character - very residential - the cons are that the upper units tend to lack private open space - you get relegated to balconies but provided you make those big enough they can work quite well - 02-33-50 - an issue we talked about before is that you have to design the space as the open spaces - so that there are clear separations between what is semi public - private - and public spaces - probably a slightly more intensive land use than the high density - given the total number of units and then we have low density - anything from row houses to single family homes - to cluster housing - here the pedestrian scale is emphasized - you have ground orientated units - private entries - ah - it has a sense of ownership and private place - the lower density is very land intensive - what we want to avoid here is urban sprawl - lots of single family - very intensive use of infrastructure - not very cost effective - so that has its pros and cons and then theres the whole heritage realm which we are going to look into for rehabbing to residential uses the center block building - what do we do with that - the natural is to make apartments out of this building - bring it back to its original character as much as possible

people
what makes you think that you are qualified to do planning for new westminster

government team
i am chairman of the consultative design committee of new westminster and i have been part of the new westminster design panel going on my third year so i am intimately familiar with the community

people
the old buchanan lodge used to fit in very well in our neighborhood - there are people in this room who remember the story of buchanan lodge very well - buchanan lodge had to be replaced and a much larger facility was foisted on the neighbourhood and all sorts of attendant problems thereafter - even though we had so called public process it was a hard fought battle to whittle down the plans

government team
02-35-40 - yes that was a bit trickier because you were right on an existing residential street and the interface between the established neighbourhood and buchanan was probably a little more direct than we have here - this site is quite isolated for a number of years - behind hedge - so the interface i dont think will be as tricky as buchanan

people
is there any parking facilitiy there given that there is greenways and so forth going to connect up with the forshore and the river and also queens park

government team
i think the intention is to take - we talked about the pedestrians - nobody likes walking along columbia - so we want to bring them up the hill slightly in front of the Centre Building and down the existing road and the city owned parcel which hooks up here - we can through it continue to develop that pedestrian connection to sapperton - 02-37-30 - and then across to the foreshore park - so were trying to foster that

people
so where will the parking be - is there going to be any parking

government team
for people using these greenways

people
the whole connection

government team
well what we are looking at is a road standard within the community that would allow parking on one side of the road - in addition the various developments will have their components of visitor parking - but were actually trying to deemphasiz cars within the site - we are trying to narrow the roads within this community and get people walking on these greenways and not relying on cars as as in other communities

people
at one of the other forums you talked about making underground parking as much as possible

woodlands site manager- government team- 2002

government team
02-38-15 - there will be whole lot of underground parking to service the individual residential developments - thats right

people
in your plans for the development are you going to deem important - that the design - being for the walking public - about people who are handicapped and who are in wheelchairs - because - i will tell you the girls say that that ground is - well i will say that you start pushing a wheelchair - not everyone of us is rick hansen and can do the ----

government team
if you were choosing the most ideal site for seniors - it wouldnt be woodlands - its going to present a significant challenge - we are well aware of that issue in terms of ramp grades - how we move seniors not so much in an east west direction but certainly in the north south direction - is a big challenge

people
02-39-45 - i just want to touch back on something that you mentioned earlier about entrances and exit - i quite agree with you that is really a tricky situation - i travel that road every day - twice a day actually and i still have great concerns with putting a major stop light right on that part - is there any other consideration

government team
which one are you talking about - the one by the hospital - by the memorial garden

people
yes - you were talking about putting a traffic light on mcbride and coming over the bridge into new westminster - is - and it struck me very hard the other day because all of a sudden you are coming over the bridge - normal driving and it stopped as you turn the corner its just such a blind area

government team
let me tell you where we have been going with this - the city asked us to look at about 6 or 7 different - some with a signal here and none there - some with the signal there and none there - some with different left hand lanes - and we have to look at not just the traffic here - the traffic as seen now in new westminster - but also the traffic growth as it is anticipated for the next 10 years and any other projected changes they might have over the long term - a key factor in that was - theyre working on a plan to try and upgrade columbia street and its traffic restrictions - they were absolutely committed to maintain the traffic flow along columbia so they looked at how does the extra traffic plus all the extra traffic that the development will generate will impact on the situation there - they havent finalized the actual solution yet - were just closing in on several different versions

government team
what we want to do at the next workshop two weeks from now is to try and show you three dimensionally how this development can start to look - 02-40-08 - somebody here mentioned that they would like to seek a topographical model of the site - we were talking about the 90 foot drop in the site - we will be bringing that model to you - showing how some of the mid rise and low rise and even high rise possibilities will start to mass out on the site - so respecting all linkages and all the planning principles we have been talking about tonight - we hope youll be there

people
02-47-58 - i am just wondering - when you talked about - when you go to the marketplace looking for developer partners - is there any idea of when that could happen

government team
ah - ah - ah - it will be - we will be starting up the process in the next month or so of formulating some ambitions under which we will go and our board hasnt made those determinations yet - why is it we want to remain involved - do we want to stay involved

people
02-48-24 - if you were to guesstimate when that might happen - when might ----

government team
it will happen sometime this year - it will probably happen may through september - i dont know - i havent really gotten into the logistics - um - ah - i wanted to make a comment - there are new people from jameson court signed up i know - i was trying to get a hold of jerry today - he was to call us back but he did not - i wanted to set up a meeting through him - i gather he is the chair of all the strata councils there not just jameson - all the fraserview councils - what i would like to do because that fraserview - jameson are our real immediate neighbours - and set up a special meeting with him

people
we can get that information for you

government team
also the glenbrook ratepayers association - we have a meeting set up with them in march - we will have discussions about the trail coming out through their community - any other organizations want to have a more detailed discussion call us and we will try and set something up

people
02-50-35 - that is exactly what i was going to talk about with respect to the nurses lodge - the city sent out faxes to everybody - i work for new westminster continuing education - we are involved with all different types of programming and i am interested in the nurses lodge as well for a couple of ideas but this is the first ive heard of it

government team
okay we got a list from the city and the chamber of commerce as well - so you can at least let us know ----

people
wouldnt it be possible getting people together who were interested in that - like you said for the seniors - cause there are a lot of different community agencies who might be very interested in getting involved in this as well

government team
there might be a number who might want to share it and take it all on - were not going to - we will work on that - we will not make a final decision on our own - i think we will be guided in that by the city

people
my other question is - your goal here - as i understand it - is that youre going to take what you accumulate here and go to the city and get the entire site rezoned as ----

government team
comprehensive development with definite guidelines for all of the things we have talked about - then each individual parcel would have to go through a separate zoning procedure for their own development so that the design ----

people
so if any developer wants to make --- changes - they wont be able to adjust the zoning

proposed re-development plan- government team- 2002

government team
the master zoning will be cd1 comprehensive development - it will lay out the types of densities that will go on the site - the guidelines lay out the conditions

people
someone might come in and they dont say what they want and they build a high rise -

government team
02-52-51 - thats impossible - this is a comprehensive package

people
they would have to get a specific site rezoning

government team
they would have to go for an annulment permit - the guidelines will be there - this overall master plan will be there - so if they come - if we identify this site as a high rise and they say no i want to build here - its not going to happen

people
would they have an opportunity to say - i purchased this site and i have decided i want to build a high rise any way - they could go back to counsel and say - get a variance

government team
yes - you can always do that - chances are ----

people
but the goal - what the overall project here is that youre going to get prior zoning - and then its going to be sold in parcels and those people will have to deal with their own ----

government team
02-53-45 - they would have to get a development permit for each development - to go through the city

people
but the zoning ---

government team
the zoning will be in place

people
it is protected once this process is done - in 10 years from now ----

government team
yes - not 100 percent but you know the city will say this is the master plan - those are your guidelines - that is what you should be doing

people
this is why im saying that bcbc should stay involved on behalf of the taxpayers to insure that these conditions are honoured

government team
02-54-14 - well the planning department will make sure that happens too

government team
it is our intention to stay involved to some extent throughout the project - we will not just sell the site and disappear

people
city hall has this tendency to get buried in its permits all the time

government team
yes i mean nothing is 100 percent sure - sorry

government team
i dont think you can even ask us to substitute for the city - we are supplicant to the city - if you dont think the city is strong enough then you have to tell your elected officials

the end

To follow the development of the Woodlands site from institutional lands to the master planned community, now called Victoria Hill please go to:
http://www.onni.com/newhomes/victoriahighrise_home.php